I got lots of note on it I thank God and I praise God. .1) Gospel of Mark time lag between being appointed and being sent Jesus went up on a mountainside and called to him those he wanted, and they came to him. Paul said no, it ONE commandment- to love people. Ill have to change the names on these 12 chalkboards hundreds of times in the next couple of millennia. What were Pauls specific sins as a Christian? That is the basic idea of the heavy-duty seminary language we were being trained in. Gamaliel was a Pharisee, and a prestigious teacher of the law in the council. Why is it so hard to give a straight answer to this simple question? Yet even here, not even Paul, not even once, ever said that All Scripture is EQUAL in authority, priority, and importance. http://www.problemswithpaul.com/Apostle_Paul.html. No research was taken into account of what the yeshivas of HIllel and Shammi taught and believed. You dont know him, and Ive just barely met him. Dr. Maybe, from what I have seen of him he does not go to great lengths on anything. Paul wrote: The entire law is summed up in a SINGLE command: Love your neighbor as yourself. [Galatians 5:14, Leviticus 19:18], And again, Paul wrote: He who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. Or see the series of posts on Core Beliefs of Second Temple Judaism starting here: https://readingacts.com/2017/03/30/core-beliefs-of-second-temple-judaism-shema/. There are many of us Red Letter Christians out here in evangelical land. In Matthew 22 and Mark 12, Jesus identified two commandments, saying one of them is the first and greatest most important one. First, Gamaliel was one of the premier teachers of the Law in the first century. Even Festus said that Paul was very learned, Acts 26:24. While his academic eloquence and Oxbridge accent package his presuupositional as carrying high credibility, it too frequently in substance simply does not. Gamaliel is mentioned a couple of times in Scripture as a famous and well-respected teacher. That is the order of address in near eastern culture and especially the Sanhedrin, being the Nazarite or the one ran by corrupted Pharisee and Sadducee. I started following this discussion because I wanted to find out more about Gamaliel, but this thread has thrown up many more points about the Apostles and St Paul in particular. I appreciate your many responses to this thread.as I wrote this response you have added a few more! Per Euseibus the first 13 bishops the Jerusalem church were Pharisee. St. Gamaliel, also Gamaliel the Elder or or Rabbi Gamaliel I (Hebrew: ; Greek: ) was a Pharisee who was a leading authority in the Sanhedrin, a doctor of the Law (Acts 5:34-40), and the teacher of St Paul (Acts 22:3). R. N. Judas obviously didnt stand by Jesus in his trial, as the whole world knows. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. My problem is with your assumption that just because Paul differs from Gamaliel makes him a radical Shammaite Pharisee. The Twelve Apostles were absolutely NOT sent out right away after being appointed Apostles, according to Mark chapters 3 through 6, and Luke chapters 6 through 9. You said that your QUOTE Quran is incorruptible. Thats like many Christians saying the Bible is inerrant. Muhammad is to Muslims as Paul is to most Christians as Mary is to most Catholics an idol that they worship, practically speaking. Here, Paul explicitly wrote that he was in these regions. My view is very similar to the traditional Orthodox view of the texts of Scripture for almost 2000 years. [Acts 20:31 vs Acts 19:8-10], .4) Paul abandoning the Church in Corinth after a year and a half for no obvious reason, and going off on another long trip, mostly on his own, without appointing anyone else in Corinth as overseer, or giving anyone else any specific authority in the Church in Corinth. Was he working around/with the High Priests, or would he still have been studying under Gamaliel? As to pauls seemingly at odds relationship with his teacher Gamaliel, it is no odd thing for a student to differ from a teacher, especially if the student is quite a zealous one. ), In essence, it is also the same principle as what Eve did in the Garden of Eden, forgetting about the Tree of Life, which is the first tree in the middle of the Garden, and instead referring to the second tree as the tree that is in the middle of the garden. [Genesis 3:3 & 2:9 2:17, 3:24], Kind of like the Pharisees with Jesus, who were pushing the false idea that we can consider ONE commandment in the Law, alone in isolation, to be the greatest commandment in the Law., Or like today, false teachers in the Chrislam Purpose Driven Seeker Sensitive Emergent Liberal Ecumenical New Age world church movement pushing the false idea that the ONE RULE is Loving God and Neighbor together.. get up set if you want ,,but Paul was that , dont believe it ? Provocative. So what is the application of this parable? No one in the pages of the Bible ever said or wrote that all Scripture, or the Bible, is all truly Gods words. There were plenty of other messianic pretenders besides Jesus, the difference is that some claimed that he was raised form the dead. I cannot imagine Paul competing in the gymnasium, even if he was Hellenized. I am not sure you can compare Pauls education to a modern one. Gamaliel is reported to have offered somewhat lenient advice concerning the early preaching of the apostles (Acts 5:34-39). (Acts 18:18) Reference to Torah (num 6:2-6, 13-18) Paul leave Philippi after Observing Unleavened bread (1 Cor. Love is all you need. I guess I had better plan ahead, and save a slot for the last Pope, Francis. 1973 Inside the mind of a Jesus Person. Maase Hatorah -works of the law 2. . Tarsus of Cilicia. Yes I agree its a commandment given by Jesus, its not optional, and it applies to us today. For example, But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified (1 Corinthians 9:27 ESV). In athletics and my walk with Christ, I must remain disciplined in all that I do. It sounds so right, so intelligent, so professional, so godly.. but it is fundamentally flawed. How can we account for this violent reaction in a man trained by Gamaliel? You are using anachronistic terms to describe a pre-70 Jewish teacher like Paul. I would agree that Saul takes a different approach than Gamaliel to the upstart church at the beginning of Acts, but I will insist that he returns to the teachings of his youth after his conversion (no doubt in no small part due to the Holy Spirit). For this he is slandered with pride by Christians who if believed in the Bible would reject mainstream theology for the lie it is. Paul cannot stand alone in opposition to Jesus and everyone else. (Also to other eyewitness testimony, recorded by Mark and Luke.) Sign up. No one except Judas ever lost his apostleship. It generated a great deal of discussion, some of which was more heat than light. Phillip you have been an inspiration to me here is a new poem. Well see in your other articles. In Philippians Paul describes himself as a Diaspora Jew who claimed to have been raised in a family which kept the Jewish traditions faultlessly. When Hillel died, his son Simeon assumed his position, but Simeon died shortly after he took office. Now, we have got a complete detailed explanation and answer for everyone, who is interested! Which is the most important? All Jews were Hellenized to some extent, perhaps Paul made more use of Hellenisitic categories after the Damascus Road, but as a citizen of Tarsus it is impossible for him to be completely and solely Jewish in his thinking. Paul = "little". The homeowners friend, the painting contractor, apologized, and explained: I hired a new foreman named Paul, but that was a huge mistake. Being in his mid-range teens allows for plenty of time for Pauls family to teach him the strict conservative Jewish ways that he often brings up. Which one is it? The Tanak wasnt the issue. 4:2 Gamaliel forbade husbands from divorcing their wives without their knowledge. Many self-professed Bible-believing Evangelicals wont listen to the words of Jesus, because they are brainwashed through reciting their mantra all scripture is God-breathed.. This has already been proven many times over that James the Just was a Nasi, the Nazarites had a Sanhedrin, and per Euseibus the first bishops of the church were Hebrews who taught Torah along with the teachings of Yeshua and you didnt have a gentile bishop until Mark. By claiming to have been under the teaching of this particular rabbi, Paul is claiming to have been educated in a most impressive way. This is not true, you have no idea what you are talking about. and I get upset as we read the bible and let someone with their interpretation do interpret for us ,no one can haggle the word of God. Just moments earlier, they had almost killed the apostle Paul. Dmando0110. Paul was so entrenched in corrupted rabbinics (MAASE HATORAH ) that it clouded the vision of Messiah until Damscucs road. Why never quesiton his testimony about himself that he never intentionally disobeyed God, is the sinless ever-virgin, and said; I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some? it seems like Gamaliels statement would be a good point to make in sharing the gospel message with people of the Jewish faith. Jesus never calls us out For what we used to be. The false teaching about one rule is the false teaching of the Pharisees of Pauls day, and Paul the Pharisee was pushing this false teaching. Then again youre the one creating a construct that Paul was Shammai. The alternative must be that the author of Acts was using some literary licence in portraying the event. George Clinton? maybe not. he wouldn't just give it all up on a whim, especially not to be jailed, flogged, persecuted, and executed for it. Same question; Specifically, what were Pauls specific sins as a Christian based on specific verses of the Bible? Perhaps Gamiliels views influenced Pauls personal comments on marriage in 1 Cor 7 (Polhill, Paul and his Letters, 30). Have heard some scholars saying that If Paul was living in the 21 century he would have had 5 phd, how true is that. There were at least 2 elements of Paul's training. But it begs the question Why would early Christians claim Rabban as one of their own? That is an issue and is creating confusion regarding the Brit Chadashah (Renewed Testament). . The overwhelming majority of the epistles is actually fighting against the teachings of Shammai in his time period. I dont have any position or influence in the Christian world. brought up . For Rabbi Saul, the idea that the messiah could be killed is wrong but is it enough to account for a violent reaction like Acts 7 and the stoning of Stephen? Im following Jesus. Only $35.99/year. So we know that he is a Pharisee, is part of the Sanhedrin, and taught the man who would eventually pen the majority of the New Testament. I feel that (not competent to know) clusters of questions like these make me second-guess just how far N.T. However I do travel to Dallas for Shavuot to visit one of Messianic Rabbis down there. The only think I have examined from him (Yeshua: A Guide to the Real Jesus and the Original Church) is occasionally accurate, but often wildly wrong. we only see him make use of those things POST conversion, this is true enough, but we do not really have a very large database of material to assess Pauls Hellenistic worldview prior to his conversion. Although there are many remarkably similarities between Paul and HIllel, there are serious differences between what might be considered the mainstream of Judaism which survived A.D. 70 (Hillel for the most part) and Pauline Christianity. So no there was zero Christianity in the book of Acts. I didnt know everything 7 years ago either but I have grown and learned new things about God and His Word in the past 7 years, as is normal for a growing believer. It is a Rembrandt. I find this convincing since Paul seems, at least in part, to return to Gamaliels tutelage after his conversion. Love. https://wonderfulgraceofjesus.wordpress.com/2017/03/08/the-commandments-of-jesus/#comment-120. His voice is so much greater Than paul the Pharisee. For example, are we missing any casuistry from Gamaliel which might demonstrate Gamaliels dissent from Hillel in specific cases presenting unique facts? No need to answer. This notion is wrong. Is it possible that Paul did conceive of certain individual missions against Christians as consistent with a rendering of mercy, that is, mercy to the stability of cultural Judaism rather than mercy to minority Jews (i.e., Christians)? Some of the trials were limited to the high priest and his inner circle, it is likely the entire 70 member Sanhedrin met to dal with Jesus. [Matthew, John, Revelation, 2 Peter NIV], Jesus is The Way to God The real Jesus of the real Apostles But false teachers come and pervert Gods Word With twists and turns and jostles, My sheep listen to my voice Jesus said for us all to hear I know them, and they follow me He doesnt run when a wolf appears, He calls his own sheep by name Its not the witchcraft of a distant stranger Not just repeating the magic words And then thinking you are out of danger, Our Father in Heaven wants to talk to you He can hear you loud and clear And He sent His Son Jesus to inhabit the earth So that all who want God can draw near, Real prayer is a conversation At least thats what God wants it to be We talk in the garden in the cool of the day When we are part of His family, Only Jesus never disobeyed God Hes the only immaculate conception The Holy Spirit comes in His Name Dont listen to the voice of deception, If a false apostle preaches I became your father, imitate me He doesnt speak the words of God Its just Boss Paul the Pharisee, And if a heretic now claims to be The Churchs universal pastor His words should be ignored They lead to nothing but disaster, Jesus did not just teach The Way He IS The Way, my friend Repeating the mantra of Marypaulhammad Is nothing but a dead end, Bibliography all quotes in quotation marks are the words of Jesus in the Gospel of John chapter 10. But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a short time. (Two other saint also removed at that timer were St. Philomena and St. Christopher. Sages of the time didn't have formal recognition or title. You seem to parrot some of his words in your replies. If the Hillel tradition did not offer plasticity enough to justify Pauls missions against Christians, is it possible that Paul felt that he stayed basically faithful to Gamaliel/Hillels school and to mercy because the predominant number (majority of cases) of Pauls concrete cases against Christians did not require threats of death (i.e., how many Christians caved in?). The Hat is, What were Pauls sins?, The music starts, with a cheery blast of trumpets in a melody that is familiar to most North Americans- the Mexican Hat Dance. (The national dance of Mexico, taught in Mexican public schools since 1921, and officially named El Jarabe Tapatio.), A couple in rather elaborate traditional costumes begins the dance. He studied under the best Jewish teachers including the well-respected teacher, Gamaliel . Beware of the NAR whale its really a killer whale with a man-made horn strapped on top. What you consider mainsteam Judaism is nothing like the previous sects of Judaism and infact evolved after the temple was destroyed. If I did something it MUST be right Dont use the Scripture to shed any light Dont do as I say, do as I do and then you can be a Pharisee too. What is undisputed is that Gamaliel was "held in . Exactly what Issa (p) al Masih said NOT TO! Jesus calls us to Himself When The Show begins Were infants so He humors us Its Rocky and His Friends https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65t-OzhlmvE. The only place in the New Testament that mentions anything like Seven Mountains is Revelation 17, seven hills on which the woman sits. (The Great Prostitute, that is.) But i am just speculating here. Evidence for this more accommodating opinion is found in the book of Acts. Clinton. Jesus said its TWO commandments, with the greatest, most important, first command to .1) first, love God with everything youve got, and .2) second, love people. Who was Gamaliel in the Bible? For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. I dont think that he is a Christian pharisee however, I believe that he just holds close to the teachings that he received for over half of his life before his conversion. (Not The Law the Prophets & the Writings, not All Scripture, not The whole Bible). Either way, by Acts logic every Christian should reject false doctrines but if a new teacher appears and preaches about God the One God, and is called a Prophet, if his mission is as wildly successful, sans the forced conversions Christianity depended on, IS FORBIDDEN at that, obviously Christians are the new Pharisees for rejecting and slandering Prophet Mohammed (saw) and adhering to oral traditions of their forefathers. The Acts of the 12 Apostles arent even Canonical but some trash letters that have brought nothing good to the world are exalted as scripture, which is because Paul says scripture in it, which actually is equal to Aggadah and not inspired or less important. He may have had Greek rhetoric and oration skills, but not at the top level (or at least he says he is not much of a speaker). And what kind of a stone is the most solid, permanent, and unchangeable? While this is a generalization, many of the rabbinic debates of the first century come down to the opinion of Hillel versus Shammai. These lines of reasoning all go back to the false idea that Paul must have been right and Paul couldnt possibly be wrong, so whatever Paul was thinking at the time must have been correct, and we just have to figure out what Pauls intended meaning was and what Paul was really thinking when he wrote these words. That would mean that your opinion about the unknowable unwritten mind of Paul becomes the Word of God. No. The Apostle John recorded about the New Jerusalem, The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. [Revelation 21:14], The Apostles are 12 faithful eyewitnesses who walked with Jesus during His entire earthly ministry, and Matthias is the 12th. Commandment given by Jesus, the difference is that Gamaliel was one of the law, recorded by Mark Luke! 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